{"id":152835,"date":"2025-06-15T12:00:35","date_gmt":"2025-06-15T16:00:35","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/truthforteachers.com\/?post_type=podcasts&#038;p=152835"},"modified":"2026-02-07T17:51:05","modified_gmt":"2026-02-07T22:51:05","slug":"distraction-free-schools-and-the-future-of-childhood-jonathan-haidt","status":"publish","type":"podcasts","link":"https:\/\/truthforteachers.com\/truth-for-teachers-podcast\/distraction-free-schools-and-the-future-of-childhood-jonathan-haidt\/","title":{"rendered":"Screens, schools, and the future of childhood: A candid dialogue with Jonathan Haidt"},"content":{"rendered":"<h3 data-start=\"258\" data-end=\"660\">In this powerful and eye-opening conversation, I talk with Jonathan Haidt\u2014author of <em data-start=\"342\" data-end=\"366\">The Anxious Generation<\/em>\u2014about how smartphones, social media, and one-to-one devices have rewired both childhood and school.<\/h3>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"258\" data-end=\"660\">We explore the sharp rise in anxiety, attention fragmentation, and developmental delays\u2014and how much of it traces back to the early 2010s, when tech flooded both kids\u2019 lives <em data-start=\"641\" data-end=\"646\">and<\/em> classrooms.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"662\" data-end=\"680\">We also discuss:<\/p>\n<ul data-start=\"681\" data-end=\"988\">\n<li data-start=\"681\" data-end=\"731\">\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"683\" data-end=\"731\">Why screen time is now the <em data-start=\"710\" data-end=\"716\">real<\/em> equity issue<\/p>\n<\/li>\n<li data-start=\"732\" data-end=\"774\">\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"734\" data-end=\"774\">How schools became dependent on EdTech<\/p>\n<\/li>\n<li data-start=\"775\" data-end=\"833\">\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"777\" data-end=\"833\">What phone-free, distraction-free classrooms look like<\/p>\n<\/li>\n<li data-start=\"834\" data-end=\"908\">\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"836\" data-end=\"908\">Why recess and unstructured play aren\u2019t luxuries\u2014they\u2019re <em data-start=\"893\" data-end=\"906\">necessities<\/em><\/p>\n<\/li>\n<li data-start=\"909\" data-end=\"988\">\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"911\" data-end=\"988\">How educators can lead the way in restoring connection, confidence, and joy<\/p>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p data-start=\"990\" data-end=\"1239\">While you may have heard Jonathan Haidt speak elsewhere about his book <a class=\"ck-link\" href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/45qlsXk\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\">\u200b<em data-slate-leaf=\"true\">The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness<\/em>\u200b<\/a>, this conversation was different.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"990\" data-end=\"1239\">This episode offers both hard truths and hope. If you\u2019ve felt the shift in your students\u2019 behavior, motivation, and mental health over the last decade\u2014this conversation will help you name what\u2019s happening and begin imagining a better path forward.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"990\" data-end=\"1239\">Later this summer, I&#8217;ll share a different perspective from someone who sees personalized AI tutoring as the future of school, and I have to admit, I find that vision just as compelling as what Haidt has shared. Stay tuned!<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"990\" data-end=\"1239\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-152981 aligncenter\" src=\"https:\/\/truthforteachers.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/distraction-free-schools-and-the-future-of-childhood-tall-1-333x500.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"333\" height=\"500\" srcset=\"https:\/\/truthforteachers.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/distraction-free-schools-and-the-future-of-childhood-tall-1-333x500.jpg 333w, https:\/\/truthforteachers.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/distraction-free-schools-and-the-future-of-childhood-tall-1-683x1024.jpg 683w, https:\/\/truthforteachers.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/distraction-free-schools-and-the-future-of-childhood-tall-1-768x1152.jpg 768w, https:\/\/truthforteachers.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/distraction-free-schools-and-the-future-of-childhood-tall-1.jpg 1000w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 333px) 100vw, 333px\" \/><\/p>\n<h3 style=\"text-align: center;\"><strong>Listen to episode 327 below,<br \/>\n<\/strong><strong>or subscribe in your podcast app<\/strong><\/h3>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" style=\"border: none;\" title=\"Libsyn Player\" src=\"\/\/html5-player.libsyn.com\/embed\/episode\/id\/36967915\/height\/90\/theme\/custom\/thumbnail\/yes\/direction\/backward\/render-playlist\/no\/custom-color\/672c5b\/\" width=\"500\" height=\"90\" scrolling=\"no\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\"> <\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\"> <\/span><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><strong>ANGELA: I\u2019m a huge fan of your book <i>The Anxious Generation<\/i>. I think a lot of what you share about anxiety, anti-social behaviors, and shortened attention spans is very apparent to teachers and others who work in K-12 schools. The effects are obvious, but the causes are harder to pinpoint, and the research you did for your book really helps fill that gap. Can you summarize the main factors contributing to the rise in anxiety among young people today, and how they specifically relate to the school environment?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p data-pm-slice=\"1 1 []\">JON: First let me say that I love teachers, and I can prove it because I actually dedicated the book to teachers. I&#8217;d already dedicated previous books to members of my family, so I decided: teachers are on the frontline. Teachers are facing so much difficulty with these new problems.<\/p>\n<p>So I dedicated the book to the teachers and principals at PS 3, Lab Middle School, Baruch Middle School, and Brooklyn Tech. These are the schools my kids went to\u2014who have devoted their lives to nurturing children, including mine. So I&#8217;m very glad to be talking to teachers. There&#8217;s so much that you can do, and there&#8217;s so much you&#8217;re going through that makes your lives harder. So let&#8217;s talk.<\/p>\n<h3>Why students seem to be showing up differently now<\/h3>\n<p>I first noticed there was a problem because the students coming into universities in 2014 and 2015 were just really different. They were much more anxious. Something was different about people born in 1996 and later. Now we know they\u2019re Gen Z. I didn\u2019t know what it was at the time. I wrote a whole book called <em>The Coddling of the American Mind<\/em> about how overprotection is partly what&#8217;s causing this. That\u2019s true, but in 2017, I didn\u2019t know. We didn\u2019t have good data yet on whether it was social media or phones. I mean, the timing was right, but we didn\u2019t have a lot of studies to demonstrate it.<\/p>\n<p>Well, now we do. The way to think about this is something happened to kids\u2014especially preteens, and especially preteen girls\u2014around 2012. It&#8217;s astonishing. I&#8217;ve arranged the evidence\u2014the trends in mental health going back decades and across many countries, certainly all the English-speaking countries and Northern Europe\u2014and it\u2019s very clear. There was no sign of a problem until 2010, even 2011. Everything was kind of flat, bouncing around a bit, but no trend. Then all of a sudden, 2012&#8230; sort of an elbow, and then a very sharp upward rise in 2013.<\/p>\n<p>So we have a very sudden, international decline in mental health that hits preteen girls the hardest. Some people say, &#8220;Oh, it must be the global financial crisis.&#8221; Really? That hit preteen girls more than anyone else? That doesn\u2019t make any sense\u2014and that was 2008. Why does this not start until 2012, 2013? There is no other explanation on the table. No one has even offered another explanation. What I&#8217;m proposing is just that these things are correlated in history: kids move on to smartphones around 2011, 2012.<\/p>\n<p>The iPhone came out in 2007, but teens didn&#8217;t really have it then. They still had flip phones. In 2010, we got the front-facing camera. In 2012, Facebook buys Instagram, and it becomes super popular. So 2012 is really the transition year where the girls, especially, now all have iPhones with front-facing cameras and Instagram accounts. This, I&#8217;m calling The Great Rewiring of Childhood.<\/p>\n<p>So take a girl going through puberty in 2015\u201411 or 12 years old. She&#8217;s on her phone. Everyone&#8217;s talking about her face, her body, her hair, her skin. She\u2019s posting. She\u2019s not spending much time with other girls because now, there&#8217;s so much time on social media. Nowadays, the average is five hours a day. They&#8217;re not connecting with other kids very much. This is what I\u2019ve called The Great Rewiring of Childhood. And it especially affected girls, if we look at anxiety and depression.<\/p>\n<p>But now, in our conversation, I think we\u2019re going to need to totally divide up the mental health story. It\u2019s one story, with one set of causes. Then I think the bigger story for education is actually the cognitive fragmentation\u2014the destruction of the ability to attend, to focus, to read a book. That\u2019s a different story with different causes, and that&#8217;s probably even bigger for teachers than the mental health crisis.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Yeah, I agree. And I\u2019ve had Jean Twenge on the show to talk about her research.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>She was the first to really discover it. Yes, I draw on her a lot.<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"5UdmcPqXq4\"><p><a href=\"https:\/\/truthforteachers.com\/truth-for-teachers-podcast\/can-banning-phones-in-school-improve-students-mental-health\/\">Does banning phones in school improve students\u2019 mental health?<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\" sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" style=\"position: absolute; visibility: hidden;\" title=\"&#8220;Does banning phones in school improve students\u2019 mental health?&#8221; &#8212; Truth For Teachers\" src=\"https:\/\/truthforteachers.com\/truth-for-teachers-podcast\/can-banning-phones-in-school-improve-students-mental-health\/embed\/#?secret=bG5IVdwyoE#?secret=5UdmcPqXq4\" data-secret=\"5UdmcPqXq4\" width=\"500\" height=\"282\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><strong>Yes\u2014and she really made that strong connection between the smartphone, social media, and what\u2019s going on. I feel like your book expands on that and also gets into the other pieces you\u2019re talking about, like continuous partial attention. So what\u2019s happening in schools? How is this rise in anxiety manifesting in schools?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Teachers are seeing it just as university professors did. We all saw it beginning in 2014, 2015. There wasn\u2019t a mental health crisis in 2012, 2013\u2014but of course, these are 18-year-olds coming in. So I think schools started seeing it a bit earlier.<\/p>\n<h3>The unintended consequences of allowing Big Tech to infiltrate schools<\/h3>\n<p>But here\u2019s the complexity: roughly the same time that all the kids got on iPhones around 2012, that\u2019s when the EdTech revolution started, too. The iPad comes out in 2010 or 2011\u2014Apple is pushing it hard on schools. I don\u2019t know if they gave it for free or subsidized it, but Apple really wanted to get kids onto the Apple ecosystem.<\/p>\n<p>Then Google develops the Chromebook. They\u2019re pushing hard. Google rises to dominance around 2014\u20132015. So we have the transformation of kids\u2014the great rewiring of childhood with the smartphone\u2014but also the great rewiring of school, quite literally. Most things now run through iPads and Chromebooks.<\/p>\n<p>We were promised this would revolutionize teaching. It was going to engage students, bring scores up. And what happened? That\u2019s exactly when scores started going down. We now have good longitudinal data. The NAEP\u2014the National Assessment of Educational Progress\u2014showed steady increases from the 1970s through 2012. Not huge, but real. Our students were performing better in 2012 than in previous decades.<\/p>\n<p>Then it starts going down. People only noticed this a year and a half ago when the 2023 data came out. People saw a big drop and said it was COVID. And yes, there was a drop with COVID\u2014but the decline actually started in 2012. So if kids knew so much less after COVID, it&#8217;s not because of the virus. It&#8217;s because all education was on screens.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s very hard for a child to learn anything with a computer or tablet in front of them, because the distraction effects are enormous. They swamp any possible benefit. That\u2019s the conclusion. Again, I\u2019m not an expert in this, but I\u2019ve been reading a lot. On <a href=\"https:\/\/www.afterbabel.com\/\">my Substack, <em>After Babel<\/em><\/a>, we now have a whole tab for educators. We\u2019ve got stories from experts on EdTech, and the story is pretty clear: EdTech harms education.<\/p>\n<p>Now\u2014I want to be precise. Putting a computer or a tablet on a kid\u2019s desk\u2014the one-to-one devices\u2014harms education. I\u2019m increasingly confident about that. Using a SMARTboard, that\u2019s probably fine.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>I don\u2019t have a reason to think interactive whiteboards are harmful. But if you want kids to pay attention to you\u2014or even to the kid next to them, which is fine\u2014you can\u2019t have a touchscreen on their desk.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>So you have to have phone-free schools. That\u2019s a must. There\u2019s no point in bringing kids to school if they have their phones. Just let them stay home and swipe. You\u2019ve got to have a phone-free school\u2014bell to bell, morning to afternoon. Then schools need to reevaluate one-to-one device policies. Probably they should get rid of all of it.<\/p>\n<p>Should you have a laptop cart for certain things? Maybe. Not in elementary school, I don\u2019t think. But in high school, quite maybe. I just don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p data-pm-slice=\"1 1 []\">To return to your question about anxiety: that all starts around 2012, 2013. I suspect that the anxiety is more from social media and kids\u2014especially girls\u2014being in this horrible attention economy and reputation game. But the declining test scores? I think that isn\u2019t so much social media per se. It\u2019s the videos, the distraction, the constant stream of more interesting content. All these screens. So, huge implications for schools.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"303\" data-end=\"616\"><strong>It\u2019s interesting that you bring up that larger historical context of Apple and Google competing to get into schools. I\u2019ve been in education since 1999, and I saw that shift. I saw Google take over, in large part because Chromebooks were way cheaper than Apple products. So it was an affordable option for schools.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"618\" data-end=\"779\"><strong>The goal for years was to go one-to-one with devices. That was how it was framed\u2014as an equity issue. We couldn\u2019t assume that kids had access to a device at home.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"781\" data-end=\"811\">That\u2019s right. What a disaster.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"813\" data-end=\"1026\"><strong>Yes\u2014if not every child has a device, then we have to give them one. Whether or not they want it. Whether or not their parents want it. The idea was: this is the only way we\u2019re going to prepare them for the future.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1028\" data-end=\"1289\"><strong>And hindsight is 20\/20. I, in large part, bought into that because it made sense at the time. If kids need these devices, why wouldn\u2019t we provide them? We shouldn&#8217;t expect families to shoulder that cost, and why should teachers have to do all these workarounds?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1291\" data-end=\"1735\"><strong>I used to write articles about what to do when you only had five computers in your classroom. How to set up stations, and those kinds of things. Then more and more schools went one-to-one, and teachers started saying, \u201cI don\u2019t like this. This isn\u2019t working. This is changing the way my students interact. It\u2019s distracting them. I feel like I\u2019m just monitoring what they\u2019re doing online. This is not teaching. This is not learning as I know it.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1737\" data-end=\"1923\"><strong>And it has not gotten better. We thought maybe it was just a learning curve\u2014as you said, the great rewiring of schools. Maybe it would get better over time as this became the new normal. <\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1737\" data-end=\"1923\"><strong>It hasn\u2019t.<\/strong> <strong>Kids don\u2019t seem to enjoy it. And teachers are not enjoying it.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2000\" data-end=\"2228\">That\u2019s right. There\u2019s so much to say here. First, let\u2019s approach this discussion with this fact: if you look at the people who created this technology\u2014if you look at what they do in Silicon Valley\u2014how do they educate their kids?<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2230\" data-end=\"2262\"><strong>Oh, Waldorf schools. No devices.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2264\" data-end=\"2655\">Exactly. They send their kids to schools with no devices because they know how addictive and destructive these things are for children. The people who made it know it best. They want <em data-start=\"2444\" data-end=\"2450\">your<\/em> children to have it\u2014but they don\u2019t let <em data-start=\"2490\" data-end=\"2497\">their<\/em> children have it. That, to me, sounds like what drug dealers do. Drug dealers never give their drugs to their own kids, but they want your kids to have them.<\/p>\n<h3 data-start=\"2264\" data-end=\"2655\">Device access in school was framed as an equity issue&#8230;but there were unintended consequences<\/h3>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2657\" data-end=\"3016\">So the idea that this is an equity issue\u2014I understand the motivation. If we go back to the &#8217;90s, when the internet was new, it really <em data-start=\"2792\" data-end=\"2797\">was<\/em> amazing. It wasn\u2019t that harmful yet. It wasn\u2019t controlled by a few massive companies. It wasn\u2019t designed to addict you. It was an incredible playground\u2014you could access all the information in the world. It was amazing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3018\" data-end=\"3244\">And it\u2019s true, of course, that wealthy families could buy computers, and poor families couldn\u2019t. So the equity argument made a lot of sense in the \u201890s. I don\u2019t know whether it was right or not, but it was certainly plausible.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3246\" data-end=\"3539\">As I show in the book, the <em data-start=\"3273\" data-end=\"3280\">first<\/em> wave of technology\u2014personal computers and the early internet\u2014did not harm mental health. There\u2019s no sign that teen mental health got worse at all. Democracies were also getting stronger. The world was getting better in the \u201890s. We were all techno-optimists.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3541\" data-end=\"3820\">But then came the <em data-start=\"3559\" data-end=\"3567\">second<\/em> wave: social media. That starts in 2003 with MySpace, Friendster, and Facebook. Teenagers get on social media, and at first, it\u2019s playful. There\u2019s no algorithm, no newsfeed. It\u2019s just about connection. So early social media wasn\u2019t particularly harmful.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3822\" data-end=\"4057\">Then the iPhone comes out\u2014which was amazing, too\u2014and you put the two together. Instagram was the first platform created exclusively for the iPhone. You couldn\u2019t even use it on a computer. You <em data-start=\"4014\" data-end=\"4019\">had<\/em> to have an iPhone to be on Instagram.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"4059\" data-end=\"4285\">So we\u2019re still techno-optimists at this point. And yes, some rich schools did have laptops. Some of them embraced it\u2014not in Silicon Valley, but elsewhere. So it made perfect sense at the time to think this was an equity issue.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"127\" data-end=\"217\">But let me actually show you\u2014it turns out it\u2019s exactly the opposite. Exactly the opposite.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"219\" data-end=\"554\">Here are some things we know: when you look at the amount of time kids are spending on screens outside of school, the average depends on the study, but it&#8217;s typically eight to nine hours a day. That\u2019s entertainment screen time\u2014not counting homework. This includes swiping, watching Netflix, everything. Eight or nine hours, on average.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"556\" data-end=\"713\">It\u2019s a little different when you break it down by social class or race. It\u2019s roughly two hours higher for low-SES kids and two hours lower for high-SES kids.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"715\" data-end=\"1113\">The equity issue is this: in wealthy families, you often have two married parents. There\u2019s money for babysitters, money for all sorts of activities. They\u2019re able to control it. They can set limits. Most wealthy families\u2014with two married, college-educated parents\u2014tend to put some controls and constraints in place. It\u2019s a constant source of conflict in the family, but they\u2019re able to keep it down.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1115\" data-end=\"1467\">Whereas, if you have a single parent with two or three kids and a job\u2014what are you going to do? The iPhone looks like the best babysitter in history. You give your kid your old iPhone\u2014we all have one in a drawer from a few years ago\u2014just hand it to your kid, and she quiets down. She seems happy. And you can do what you need to do for hours at a time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1469\" data-end=\"1910\">But when we look at the damage being done\u2014no matter which metric we use\u2014more of the harm is happening to low-SES kids compared to high, to Black and Hispanic kids compared to white and Asian kids, and to single-parent families compared to married-parent families.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1912\" data-end=\"1942\">So yeah, it\u2019s an equity issue.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1944\" data-end=\"2196\">Get the computers and laptops the hell out of the desks. And the schools in lower-SES neighborhoods. They\u2019re the ones who need the most help getting offline\u2014which is why phone-free schools are the most important policy every school needs to implement.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2198\" data-end=\"2674\">In addition to the benefits it provides to everyone, it <em data-start=\"2254\" data-end=\"2266\">especially<\/em> helps kids from low-SES families. Because this gives them six or seven hours a day that can be screen-free. Once they leave school, it\u2019s screens all day long. If we want to give them even a little time to look people in the eye, to develop interpersonal skills, to listen to a teacher, to try to work something out for five minutes continuously without an interruption\u2014we have to go with phone-free schools.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2676\" data-end=\"2868\">It\u2019s a huge equity issue now. And it\u2019s like everything has flipped on its head. It used to be, \u201cWe have to get devices to them.\u201d Now, school is the <em data-start=\"2822\" data-end=\"2828\">only<\/em> screen-free time they\u2019re going to have.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2870\" data-end=\"2899\"><strong>That\u2019s right\u2014the only screen-free time may be in schools.<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"ryPAvuFH9d\"><p><a href=\"https:\/\/truthforteachers.com\/truth-for-teachers-podcast\/stay-human-teaching-students-to-protect-their-brain-power-in-an-ai-world\/\">Stay human: Teaching students to protect their brain power in an AI world<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\" sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" style=\"position: absolute; visibility: hidden;\" title=\"&#8220;Stay human: Teaching students to protect their brain power in an AI world&#8221; &#8212; Truth For Teachers\" src=\"https:\/\/truthforteachers.com\/truth-for-teachers-podcast\/stay-human-teaching-students-to-protect-their-brain-power-in-an-ai-world\/embed\/#?secret=lDiwEXUBey#?secret=ryPAvuFH9d\" data-secret=\"ryPAvuFH9d\" width=\"500\" height=\"282\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<h3 data-start=\"2870\" data-end=\"2899\">There was no post-COVID bounce, because children&#8217;s brains and attention spans have been rewired<\/h3>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2901\" data-end=\"3124\">And I should just add\u2014people were expecting that since NAEP scores had been down since 2012, and especially after COVID, there would be a \u201cCOVID bounce.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3126\" data-end=\"3158\"><strong>Didn\u2019t happen. Did <em data-start=\"3145\" data-end=\"3150\">not<\/em> happen.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3160\" data-end=\"3195\">There\u2019s no post-COVID bounce. Nope.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3197\" data-end=\"3543\">Secondly\u2014and you can find these charts online, I\u2019ve shown them in my talks\u2014when you plot NAEP scores, or TIMSS (Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study), or really any of these longitudinal surveys of educational outcomes by social class or by quartile\u2014what\u2019s happening to the top quarter? The students who score in the highest 25%?<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3545\" data-end=\"3668\">Answer: They\u2019re not really down since 2012. They\u2019re down a little, but there\u2019s no big dramatic drop for the top performers.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3670\" data-end=\"4031\">Look at the bottom quarter. That\u2019s where all the drop is. The bottom quartile has been devastated. Their scores are substantially down since 2012\u2014not just since COVID. Of course, they dropped even more during COVID. But again, if we care about equality of outcomes, if we care about improving education for the least advantaged, we\u2019ve done exactly the opposite.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"4033\" data-end=\"4241\">Of course, by accident. We were misled. These things were pushed on us. School districts often said\u2014and some teachers have told me\u2014the instruction came down: \u201cYou have to work the technology into everything.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"4243\" data-end=\"4290\">They were forced to do it. And it was terrible.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"161\" data-end=\"304\"><strong>Yeah. I think that\u2019s going to be really validating for a lot of teachers to hear, because in many cases, this was <em data-start=\"275\" data-end=\"280\">not<\/em> a teacher-led decision.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"306\" data-end=\"485\"><strong>And then, talking about expecting the post-COVID bounce\u2014I was just speaking with a third-grade teacher in California, where they did remote learning for three years. And she said:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"487\" data-end=\"634\"><strong>\u201cThis is the first year that incoming third graders have had in-person learning for their entire lifetime. They\u2019ve never known anything different.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"636\" data-end=\"654\">Oh yes\u2014California.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"656\" data-end=\"925\"><strong>Right? They didn\u2019t have any in-person kindergarten. And her point was, she thought things would go back to normal now. Finally. They were so excited. This group of kids was going to be ready to learn. They\u2019d have the interpersonal and social skills, the attention span.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"927\" data-end=\"1115\"><strong>But it didn\u2019t change. It\u2019s the same thing. And it\u2019s so depressing to her and her teammates, because they\u2019re seeing it: there\u2019s something happening to our children. There <em data-start=\"1099\" data-end=\"1103\">is<\/em> a rewiring.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1117\" data-end=\"1424\"><strong>And I\u2019d say, it\u2019s not just children\u2019s brains\u2014it\u2019s adult brains, too. Even though I think you make a really compelling case for why developing brains are more impacted by this, the truth is: all of us are being affected. It\u2019s changing how kids are showing up in school, and it\u2019s changing how we show up, too.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1426\" data-end=\"1595\">Yes. There was just an article in the <em data-start=\"1464\" data-end=\"1481\">Financial Times<\/em> last week. (There\u2019s a paywall, but if you go to my Twitter\u2014<a href=\"https:\/\/x.com\/JonHaidt\">Jon Haidt<\/a>\u2014you\u2019ll find my tweet where I summarize it.)<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1597\" data-end=\"1864\">What the reporter did was pull together a bunch of studies on people\u2019s ability to focus, concentrate, and even read. Some studies were surveys asking how much trouble people are having. Others tested actual concentration and attention. They looked at kids and adults.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1866\" data-end=\"2112\">And what they found is that beginning around 2014 or 2015, cognitive difficulties increased\u2014especially in teenagers. We draw from the <em data-start=\"2000\" data-end=\"2023\">Monitoring the Future<\/em> study on that, and the evidence is very clear. But it\u2019s not just teens\u2014it\u2019s adults, too.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2114\" data-end=\"2396\">This ties into what you said: we\u2019re all feeling overwhelmed. It\u2019s harder to focus because there are a hundred things coming at us. And if we\u2019re doing something that gets even a little boring, our brain knows\u2014there\u2019s something more interesting over here. So it\u2019s affecting all of us.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2398\" data-end=\"2649\">But here\u2019s the thing: adults are done with puberty. The brain rewires very rapidly during puberty, and that rewiring continues\u2014slowing down in the late teens\u2014but continuing all the way through age 25. That\u2019s when the brain settles into its adult form.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2651\" data-end=\"2939\">And if you disrupt that process during those key years, there\u2019s a chance the changes are permanent. Now, the brain is still flexible\u2014I\u2019m not saying those third graders are lost. But we\u2019re really going to have to work with them to restore those skills while their brains are still plastic.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2941\" data-end=\"3054\">So I\u2019m hopeful for the younger ones\u2014especially the pre-pubertal kids. If we work on it, I think we can get there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3056\" data-end=\"3116\">But let me ask you a couple of questions, if you don\u2019t mind?<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3118\" data-end=\"3123\"><strong>Sure.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3125\" data-end=\"3422\">We all need to understand what happened. How did we get suckered into this? Angela, can you tell me\u2014why did the schools adopt Chromebooks and iPads so widely? Did the companies push them? Were they free? Subsidized? How did it happen that schools ended up pushing teachers into adopting this tech?<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3424\" data-end=\"3659\"><strong>I think there were deals made. Yes, I think some of it was subsidized. I believe some Title I funds were used\u2014so in low-SES communities, where schools receive federal Title I support, the Chromebooks could be paid for with those funds.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3661\" data-end=\"3780\"><strong>And there was this idea that <em data-start=\"3690\" data-end=\"3696\">this<\/em> is what the future is going to be. We <em data-start=\"3735\" data-end=\"3741\">need<\/em> to get devices into the hands of kids.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"4073\" data-end=\"4160\"><strong>I think most teachers were really frustrated, because it was requiring them to change everything about the way they taught. Suddenly, everything had to include technology. And a lot of the evaluation standards were changed, too. So if a principal walked into your classroom and you weren\u2019t using technology, you could actually get marked down on your evaluation for that.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"502\" data-end=\"692\">Wow. Okay, so that makes sense\u2014teachers weren\u2019t asking for this, but thought leaders were saying, \u201cWe\u2019ve got to go this way.\u201d Common sense made it <em data-start=\"649\" data-end=\"655\">seem<\/em> like this was the way of the future.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"694\" data-end=\"885\">So what you\u2019re saying is, this was mostly a good faith effort\u2014at least within the schools. People really, honestly thought they were doing the right thing for student achievement. For equity.<\/p>\n<h3 data-start=\"694\" data-end=\"885\">The impact of phone-free schools<\/h3>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"887\" data-end=\"1247\">And I\u2019ll just drop in here\u2014the country of Sweden, which was one of the first to digitize everything (Sweden\u2019s very progressive in a lot of ways\u2014they were even ahead of us in moving everything to tech), announced about a year ago that it was a huge mistake. And they\u2019re undoing it. They\u2019re removing all the devices from classrooms, especially in primary school.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1249\" data-end=\"1449\">And UNESCO\u2014the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization\u2014they\u2019ve had a number of reports, too. In 2023, UNESCO put out a major report basically saying: this stuff is backfiring.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1451\" data-end=\"1716\">There\u2019s also an incredible book called <em data-start=\"1490\" data-end=\"1509\">An EdTech Tragedy<\/em>. If you just Google it\u2014<em data-start=\"1533\" data-end=\"1549\">EdTech Tragedy<\/em> by Mark West (who worked at UNESCO)\u2014you\u2019ll find it. It lays out what UNESCO discovered about the devastation this technology is causing to education around the world.<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1718\" data-end=\"1938\">The core idea is this: whatever theoretical benefit might exist, when you put a multi-function device in front of a student, they\u2019re going to do multiple things. The distraction effect <em data-start=\"1913\" data-end=\"1938\">swamps everything else.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1940\" data-end=\"2206\">That\u2019s true even for my graduate students at NYU. They can\u2019t have computers in my class. I have an absolute no-screens policy. Because I\u2019ve learned from experience\u201427-year-old MBA students, if they have their laptops open, they <em data-start=\"2168\" data-end=\"2184\">can\u2019t help it.<\/em> They\u2019re multitasking.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2208\" data-end=\"2315\">So how do we expect seven- or eight-year-olds to focus if they have a computer or an iPad in front of them?<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2317\" data-end=\"2349\"><strong>How do your students take notes?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2351\" data-end=\"2560\">On paper. I make the slides\u2014I use technology to present\u2014and then I make the slides available to them. So they don\u2019t have to write down what\u2019s on the slides, but they do have to bring paper and pencil to class.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2562\" data-end=\"2877\">There was some hesitancy when I first started doing this two or three years ago. But even after just a few weeks, they all said it was better. And now, so many of us college professors are doing this. We\u2019ve all seen the damage. So many of us are doing it, and the students say it\u2019s better. They like the class more.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2879\" data-end=\"3029\">I mean, these are MBA students. They\u2019re paying a lot of money to be here. Why would they want to sit there on Twitter, or online shopping, or texting?<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3031\" data-end=\"3119\">Because we can\u2019t help it. These things are designed to be addictive. We <em data-start=\"3103\" data-end=\"3119\">can\u2019t help it.<\/em><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3121\" data-end=\"3262\"><strong>Yeah. And I think the same thing is true with K\u201312 students. When you first start talking about no phones in school, there\u2019s some resistance.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3264\" data-end=\"3458\"><strong>And what you propose\u2014what I really like\u2014is using Yondr pouches, or creating a space where phones are completely put away. The kids aren\u2019t even looking at them at lunchtime or in between classes.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3460\" data-end=\"3475\">That\u2019s crucial.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3477\" data-end=\"3540\"><strong>Yes. Go ahead and talk about that first before I make my point.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3542\" data-end=\"3676\">So, most schools <em data-start=\"3559\" data-end=\"3564\">say<\/em> they ban phones. What they mean is: \u201cWe have a policy. You\u2019re not allowed to take out your phone during class.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3678\" data-end=\"3745\">Which is not a real policy. That\u2019s what they have in New York City.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3747\" data-end=\"3918\">My kids say what that means is: you just have to <em data-start=\"3796\" data-end=\"3802\">hide<\/em> your phone in your book, or put it in your lap, or go to the bathroom to use it. But they\u2019re still on their phones.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3920\" data-end=\"4050\">If anyone is texting, everyone has to check\u2014because nobody wants to be the one kid who doesn\u2019t know what happened in third period.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"4052\" data-end=\"4257\">So that\u2019s the first thing: you cannot have the phones <em data-start=\"4106\" data-end=\"4110\">on<\/em> the kid. That\u2019s like asking heroin addicts to say, \u201cYou must keep your heroin in your pocket, but you are not allowed to shoot up during the day.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"4259\" data-end=\"4278\">That\u2019s the first thing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"147\" data-end=\"261\">The second thing is that part of what\u2019s happening in schools now is&#8230; it\u2019s just not fun. School is no longer fun.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"263\" data-end=\"337\">And part of that is because kids don\u2019t have much of a social life anymore.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"339\" data-end=\"545\">Jean Twenge and I have a paper where we tracked PISA data\u2014the international education dataset\u2014and what we found was that loneliness in school was stable throughout the early 2000s, all the way through 2012.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"681\">And then\u2014after 2012\u2014loneliness in school increases. All over the world. Less in East Asia, but across Europe and the U.S., it goes up.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"683\" data-end=\"687\">Why? Well, you and I remember laughing with our friends in school, right? Do you remember how much we laughed? Joking around, teasing each other, running through the halls?<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"858\" data-end=\"966\">The fun part of school was lunch, recess, and the time between classes\u2014if you were moving from room to room.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"968\" data-end=\"1049\">Now imagine all of that going away. Imagine the hallways going completely silent. Which I\u2019m sure many of your teachers have seen\u2014especially in schools where the phone ban is <em data-start=\"1143\" data-end=\"1149\">only<\/em> during class time. The kids will flout that ban anyway. But they\u2019ll <em data-start=\"1218\" data-end=\"1230\">definitely<\/em> grab their phones in between classes.<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1270\" data-end=\"1480\">And here\u2019s the most exciting thing to me about phone-free schools: every report says the same thing. Every teacher or principal who\u2019s interviewed about it\u2014especially in the newspaper\u2014always says the same thing:<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1482\" data-end=\"1601\">\u201cWe hear laughter in the hallways again. It\u2019s loud in the hallways. It\u2019s loud at lunch. The kids are having fun again.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1603\" data-end=\"1691\">So you\u2019ve got to have a phone-free policy. It has to be for the whole day. Bell to bell.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1693\" data-end=\"1788\">Some people call it a \u201cdistraction-free school.\u201d And I actually think that\u2019s a very good label.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1790\" data-end=\"2104\">I like that. I\u2019ve been using the term \u201cphone-free schools\u201d ever since my <em data-start=\"1863\" data-end=\"1873\">Atlantic<\/em> article two or three years ago\u2014that\u2019s what we\u2019ve been aiming for. But I think \u201cdistraction-free school\u201d is even better. Because now it explains <em data-start=\"2018\" data-end=\"2023\">why<\/em> we have to get rid of one-to-one devices. Those are huge sources of distraction.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2106\" data-end=\"2224\"><strong>And it points to the purpose. It\u2019s not about saying \u201cphones are bad.\u201d The problem is distraction. The goal is <em data-start=\"2216\" data-end=\"2224\">focus.<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2226\" data-end=\"2245\"><strong>Yes. Focus is good.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2247\" data-end=\"2377\">Exactly. Focus is good. I\u2019m going to start using that term more: distraction-free schools. I\u2019ve got to be a proponent of that now.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2379\" data-end=\"2576\"><strong>Yeah, I really like it. And it ties in perfectly with what you were saying about your MBA students actually liking having to take notes on paper. It\u2019s weird for them at first\u2014but then they adjust.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2578\" data-end=\"2807\"><strong>And it\u2019s the same thing when schools implement distraction-free policies. There\u2019s no phone use at all during the school day. At first, the kids are reluctant. But there are ways to get buy-in and help them understand the purpose.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2809\" data-end=\"2979\"><strong>And almost universally, I\u2019ve <em data-start=\"2838\" data-end=\"2845\">never<\/em> heard of a school trying this and then saying, \u201cThe kids and parents hated it so much, we had to go back to letting them use phones.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2981\" data-end=\"3016\">That\u2019s right. It never gets undone.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3018\" data-end=\"3242\">At first, the kids object. And for the first week, maybe even two. But by the third week\u2014that seems to be the magic number I keep hearing\u2014by week three, they realize: \u201cWait. This is fun. We\u2019re actually having fun at school.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3244\" data-end=\"3401\">And to be clear, we\u2019re focused on both mental health <em data-start=\"3297\" data-end=\"3302\">and<\/em> learning. But some of the biggest changes schools notice? It\u2019s in behavioral issues and tardiness.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3403\" data-end=\"3524\">When school sucks\u2014when it\u2019s just more swiping, drama, and bullying online all day long\u2014kids <em data-start=\"3495\" data-end=\"3524\">don\u2019t want to go to school.<\/em><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3526\" data-end=\"3623\">But when school becomes fun again, when it feels safe and social, kids actually want to be there.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3625\" data-end=\"3774\">And another thing\u2014so much drama happens <em data-start=\"3665\" data-end=\"3680\">on the phone.<\/em> A lot of physical fights actually start because of something that happened on social media<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"137\" data-end=\"356\">Or in some schools, the kids are so focused on social media\u2014not the class\u2014that the way to gain prestige is by having posts go viral. So they lure a kid into the bathroom and beat the hell out of him just to get a video.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"358\" data-end=\"481\">You\u2019ve got kids being severely harmed so that other kids can post the beating online. It\u2019s sick. It\u2019s inhumane. It\u2019s cruel.<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"eh9KbrvOCA\"><p><a href=\"https:\/\/truthforteachers.com\/truth-for-teachers-podcast\/how-to-get-true-student-buy-in-for-your-no-cellphone-policy\/\">How to get TRUE student buy-in for your &#8220;no phone&#8221; policy<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\" sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" style=\"position: absolute; visibility: hidden;\" title=\"&#8220;How to get TRUE student buy-in for your &#8220;no phone&#8221; policy&#8221; &#8212; Truth For Teachers\" src=\"https:\/\/truthforteachers.com\/truth-for-teachers-podcast\/how-to-get-true-student-buy-in-for-your-no-cellphone-policy\/embed\/#?secret=p4V6WnkuhA#?secret=eh9KbrvOCA\" data-secret=\"eh9KbrvOCA\" width=\"500\" height=\"282\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"483\" data-end=\"578\">And so, there\u2019s just no argument\u2014there\u2019s <em data-start=\"524\" data-end=\"528\">no<\/em> argument\u2014for leaving phones in the hands of kids.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"580\" data-end=\"678\">Oh\u2014wait. There\u2019s one argument I\u2019d like to deal with. The main pushback comes from parents who say:<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"580\" data-end=\"678\"><strong>What about an emergency?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"680\" data-end=\"715\">Yes. \u201cWhat if there\u2019s a school shooter?\u201d A tragic question.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"737\" data-end=\"897\"><strong>I know. We have to think that way, and that\u2019s part of the tragedy\u2014that rather than fixing that issue, we allow kids to be on their phones all day, just in case.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"899\" data-end=\"956\">Right. Because of the remote chance of a school shooting.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"958\" data-end=\"1046\">So here\u2019s the thing. Here\u2019s what I say\u2014here\u2019s what I think any administrator should say:<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1048\" data-end=\"1274\">My kids went to New York City public schools. My daughter is a sophomore. And like every parent, if something awful like that happened, I would <em data-start=\"1192\" data-end=\"1205\">desperately<\/em> want to hear my child\u2019s voice. I\u2019d want to talk to them immediately.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1276\" data-end=\"1362\">But we have to do what\u2019s best for the <em data-start=\"1314\" data-end=\"1320\">kids<\/em>, not what feels best to us in the moment.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1364\" data-end=\"1588\">And all the security experts say the same thing: if there\u2019s an actual shooter, the <em data-start=\"1447\" data-end=\"1453\">last<\/em> thing you want is every kid pulling out their phone, calling their parents, making noise, crying, not listening, not paying attention.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1590\" data-end=\"1688\">Then the parents rush to the school. They block emergency responders. So many cars. So much chaos. The last thing you want is everyone on their phones during a crisis.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1760\" data-end=\"1905\">What you <em data-start=\"1769\" data-end=\"1773\">do<\/em> want is for the kids to be quiet. Pay attention. Do what they practiced. Follow the lockdown procedures. Be alert. Be ready to act. You don\u2019t want them on the phone. The phone won\u2019t protect them. It\u2019s not going to help.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1996\" data-end=\"2184\"><strong>Right. It\u2019s not going to protect them\u2014and it\u2019s going to distract them. They\u2019ll be texting, not paying attention to instructions, and not staying aware of their surroundings in that moment.<\/strong><\/p>\n<h3 data-start=\"1996\" data-end=\"2184\">Could the key to student engagement be device-free socialization and play-based learning?<\/h3>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2186\" data-end=\"2267\"><strong>I want to circle back to something you said earlier\u2014about school being fun again.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2269\" data-end=\"2306\"><strong>That gave me kind of an \u201caha\u201d moment.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2308\" data-end=\"2583\"><strong>We talk a lot about making lessons more engaging, more fun. And part of the push for technology has been because it seems to make learning more engaging for kids. But maybe it&#8217;s more addictive than engaging. Maybe what we\u2019re really doing is playing into that addictive cycle.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2585\" data-end=\"2810\"><strong>It\u2019s interesting to think about school being more fun when kids have the kind of social experience that <em data-start=\"2689\" data-end=\"2693\">we<\/em> had growing up\u2014where a big part of why you want to go to school is to see your friends. That was a major motivation.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2812\" data-end=\"2962\"><strong>You knew you were going to laugh with your friends at lunch, during recess, between classes. That was the fun part\u2014not necessarily the lesson content.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2964\" data-end=\"3057\"><strong>But now, kids are checking their phones constantly\u2014seeing what people said about them online.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3059\" data-end=\"3310\"><strong>What if <em data-start=\"3067\" data-end=\"3073\">that<\/em>\u2014restoring real, offline social connection\u2014was actually the key to making school more engaging? What if that\u2019s how we increase attendance and reduce tardiness? By thinking: how can we create truly meaningful, in-person connections again?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3312\" data-end=\"3453\"><strong>Because honestly, the lessons were never the most fun part when we were in school either. The <em data-start=\"3406\" data-end=\"3420\">social piece<\/em>\u2014that\u2019s what really pulled us in.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3455\" data-end=\"3481\">Exactly. Two quick points.<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3483\" data-end=\"3618\">First, yes\u2014technology <em data-start=\"3505\" data-end=\"3510\">can<\/em> make lessons more engaging. I\u2019m sure it\u2019s more fun to learn math with a game. But here\u2019s the terrible part.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3620\" data-end=\"3767\">If you gamify a third of the school day\u2014if kids are spending large portions of their day on educational apps that are gamified\u2014here\u2019s what happens:<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3769\" data-end=\"3880\">Gamification means: you make a response, you get feedback, you earn a reward, you get a little hit of dopamine.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3882\" data-end=\"3914\">So if you&#8217;re doing that for a third of the school day, yes\u2014you might actually get more engagement <em data-start=\"216\" data-end=\"224\">during<\/em> that third of the day.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"249\" data-end=\"301\">But here\u2019s the catch: you\u2019re resetting their brains.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"303\" data-end=\"578\">You\u2019re literally making the dopamine circuits less sensitive to stimulation. It starts to take more stimulation just to feel <em data-start=\"428\" data-end=\"437\">normal.<\/em> In other words, the gamified part might seem more engaging in the moment\u2014but that ends up making the <em data-start=\"539\" data-end=\"545\">rest<\/em> of the day feel <em data-start=\"562\" data-end=\"568\">less<\/em> engaging.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"580\" data-end=\"631\">They are literally more bored the rest of the time.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"633\" data-end=\"787\">So don\u2019t be fooled. Don\u2019t be tricked by consultants saying, \u201cWe show higher engagement when kids use our game.\u201d Don\u2019t believe them. You <em data-start=\"769\" data-end=\"776\">don\u2019t<\/em> want that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"789\" data-end=\"845\">So that\u2019s the first point\u2014about engagement and learning.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"847\" data-end=\"937\">But the more important piece is what you were saying earlier\u2014about fun, play, socializing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"939\" data-end=\"1021\">That brings up the other half of the book. I can summarize the core idea this way:<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1023\" data-end=\"1116\">We have overprotected our children in the real world. And we\u2019ve underprotected them online.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1118\" data-end=\"1311\">Everybody wants to talk about phones, iPads, computers\u2014and that\u2019s really important. We <em data-start=\"1205\" data-end=\"1210\">can<\/em> take action on that today, which makes it powerful. But the <em data-start=\"1271\" data-end=\"1278\">other<\/em> half of the story is about play.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1313\" data-end=\"1438\">And it\u2019s crucial for people to understand that we are mammals\u2014and <em data-start=\"1379\" data-end=\"1384\">all<\/em> mammal babies play. That\u2019s how we wire up our brains.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1440\" data-end=\"1635\">There are studies\u2014some of which I reference in the book\u2014on how monkeys and rats (both very social mammals) develop without play. Scientists have ways of raising them together but preventing play.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1637\" data-end=\"1845\">And when that happens? The animals come out anxious. They don\u2019t develop confidence. You put them in a new environment and they shrink into the corner, paralyzed by fear. They don\u2019t explore. They don\u2019t engage.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"1847\" data-end=\"1889\">Play-deprived mammals are anxious mammals. They haven\u2019t learned how to navigate the world. They haven\u2019t learned how to relate to others. So it\u2019s a terrible thing to deprive children of play.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2040\" data-end=\"2082\">And we\u2019ve been doing that since the 1980s. That\u2019s when the report <em data-start=\"2107\" data-end=\"2125\">A Nation at Risk<\/em> came out in the eighties.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2162\" data-end=\"2425\">So <em data-start=\"2172\" data-end=\"2190\">A Nation at Risk<\/em> comes out in the early 1980s, and the education establishment freaks out. The message was: \u201cOh my God\u2014Singapore is ahead of us. We have to make kids learn more. Lengthen the school year. Cut back summer vacation. No more wasted time!\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2427\" data-end=\"2537\">And what got cut? Recess. Gym. Art. Anything that wasn\u2019t sitting still and learning math, science, or English.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2539\" data-end=\"2611\">That was a terrible mistake. And it\u2019s part of what made school less fun. All mammals play. We <em data-start=\"2703\" data-end=\"2709\">have<\/em> to. And that report\u2014<em data-start=\"2730\" data-end=\"2748\">A Nation at Risk<\/em>\u2014contributed to this belief that anything not academic was frivolous.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2819\" data-end=\"2902\">But it turns out kids\u2014and especially boys\u2014need recess. They need physical movement.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"2904\" data-end=\"3131\">Boys tend to engage in more active, team-based play. Girls also need play, but theirs often involves more imaginative play and smaller groups. Both are vital. But boys especially need opportunities for competition and movement.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3133\" data-end=\"3240\">And what we\u2019re seeing is that over time, girls have been rising academically while boys have been dropping.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3242\" data-end=\"3356\">So recess and unstructured play aren\u2019t optional. They\u2019re <em data-start=\"3299\" data-end=\"3310\">essential<\/em>\u2014especially for boys, but really for all kids.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3242\" data-end=\"3356\">We all had fun at recess. So to take that away&#8230; Actually, if you don\u2019t mind, I\u2019d like to lay out the four core norms from the book\u2014because we can solve this problem if we do just four things. And the fourth ties directly back into what we\u2019re talking about here.<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li data-start=\"3242\" data-end=\"3356\"><em>No smartphones before high school.<\/em> Parents should not give their kids smartphones. Give them a flip phone, or a phone watch. Nothing that connects to the internet until high school.<\/li>\n<li data-start=\"3242\" data-end=\"3356\"><em>No social media until age 16.<\/em> Parents should keep their kids off social media until they\u2019re 16. I\u2019m hopeful that we\u2019ll get laws to support this\u2014Florida has passed such a law, and Australia has as well.<\/li>\n<li data-start=\"3242\" data-end=\"3356\"><em>Phone-free schools.<\/em> We\u2019ve already been talking about this. Schools must be distraction-free from bell to bell.<\/li>\n<li data-start=\"3242\" data-end=\"3356\"><em>Much more independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world.<\/em> We have to give kids back agency. Fun. Time doing things together\u2014ideally <em data-start=\"1088\" data-end=\"1097\">without<\/em> adult supervision. That\u2019s how kids learn to be self-supervising and self-governing: by having opportunities to <em data-start=\"1209\" data-end=\"1219\">practice<\/em>.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>And schools can do so much more to restore this. For example, recess. In the book, I cite a striking statistic: Federal prisoners in penitentiaries are <em data-start=\"1381\" data-end=\"1393\">guaranteed<\/em> two hours of yard time a day. American elementary school students? Often just 25 minutes\u2014and sometimes that\u2019s combined with lunch.<\/p>\n<p>So when we cut back on recess, we are really hurting our kids. And just bringing more play into the school day would make school more fun\u2014which increases engagement, especially for boys. When boys run around and then sit down, they\u2019re much more ready to learn than if they\u2019ve been sitting still for hours.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Yeah, you\u2019re really speaking teachers\u2019 language here. The reduction\u2014and in some cases, removal\u2014of recess has been a thorn in teachers\u2019 sides for years. <\/strong><strong>It\u2019s so obvious that kids focus better when they\u2019ve had a chance to move. That\u2019s one part of it. <\/strong><strong>And then there\u2019s what kindergarten teachers are always saying\u2014there used to be blocks. There used to be dramatic play centers.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh no. Those are gone?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Yes\u2014in most classrooms, gone.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s horrible!<\/p>\n<p><strong>It started going away when I was student teaching in the 1990s.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh my gosh. So wait\u2014what about pre-K? Is that still focused on blocks and play?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Yes&#8230; but even pre-K is becoming more academic now. It\u2019s still play-based, and there are centers, but the push toward academics has crept down even into preschool.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s awful.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Because early childhood educators have <em data-start=\"2637\" data-end=\"2645\">always<\/em> understood the importance of play. And I think most educators, in general, get this. They <em data-start=\"2736\" data-end=\"2744\">bemoan<\/em> the loss of recess. <\/strong><strong>What\u2019s so strange to me is this: we\u2019re constantly talking about \u201cfollowing the research\u201d and \u201cusing best practices.\u201d\u00a0 <\/strong><strong>Well, the research <em data-start=\"2903\" data-end=\"2920\">has always said<\/em> that kids need breaks. That they need to move. That they need fresh air, sunshine, and time in nature.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>There is <em data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3038\">no<\/em> research that says kids should sit in chairs for six hours a day. <\/strong><strong>Somehow, we ignore that research\u2014and instead put the responsibility on <em data-start=\"3181\" data-end=\"3191\">teachers<\/em>. Now it\u2019s your job to squeeze breaks into the day. You have to figure out how to get kids moving.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>But what kids really need is simple:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong data-start=\"3330\" data-end=\"3351\">They need recess. <\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong data-start=\"3354\" data-end=\"3386\">They need unstructured time.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong data-start=\"3389\" data-end=\"3433\">They need free, independent exploration.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>And you make such a strong case for that in your book. We can\u2019t schedule every moment of a child\u2019s day with structured activities. They need time to make up their own games.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Exactly. They need unstructured play. Yes, yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s this really compelling fallacy out there\u2014and I hear it all the time. It goes like this: \u201cIf I want my kid to be great at something, the earlier I start them, the better they\u2019ll be.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So if I want my kid to be a world-class violinist, I\u2019d better start them at age three. Now&#8230; with music? Maybe. That might be true.<\/p>\n<p>But when it comes to academics, the research says the opposite. Starting earlier doesn\u2019t really help. You don\u2019t get any benefit from starting kids on math or reading super early.<\/p>\n<p>In Finland\u2014and I think this is true across Scandinavia, but I know it\u2019s true in Finland\u2014they don\u2019t start formal academics until age 7. Before age 7? It\u2019s just <em data-start=\"4329\" data-end=\"4348\">play, play, play. <\/em>And guess what? Kids still learn to read. I mean, you learn to read, you\u2019ve got to learn the alphabet, learn to read. But they don&#8217;t really push the academic stuff until age seven because you don&#8217;t get an advantage from starting early. You get a disadvantage from suppressing play.<\/p>\n<p>If you want kids to end up in a really advanced state of education, let their brains develop properly in a healthy way with good social skills and an ability to pay attention, which will be enhanced by recess, not damaged by it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Yes. So the teachers are bought in on this.<\/strong><\/p>\n<h3>The momentum is shifting toward phone-free schools &#8230; and we can be part of that<\/h3>\n<p><strong>What can we do about this, Jon? How do we change our schools in this way?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. Well, you know what? So I\u2019ve been speaking to a lot of school superintendents since my book came out a year ago. I have so many invitations to speak at schools, but I just don\u2019t have much time. So what I\u2019ve decided to focus on is superintendents.<\/p>\n<p>I just spoke at the California Superintendents Convention. Tomorrow I\u2019m speaking to all the superintendents in Connecticut. I love them. They\u2019re so enthusiastic. They seem to really get it on the phone-free schools.<\/p>\n<p>The big obstacle was the parents. But they want to go phone-free. And so what I\u2019m saying is I think we actually have alignment here now. We didn\u2019t have it a few years ago. I think we now have alignment.<\/p>\n<p>The parents are now seeing that the devices are a problem. The teachers have seen it from the beginning. The superintendents\u2014they might\u2019ve been wowed by the consultants early on\u2014but they\u2019re seeing the problems now, too.<\/p>\n<p>Nobody seems to know how to deal with them. Things are not getting better. And I think we\u2019re all converging on the idea that the devices are the problem, not the solution.<\/p>\n<p>And so again, we can\u2019t be 100% sure, but it\u2019s sure looking that way. We conducted a gigantic experiment on all American children by doing this\u2014without any control group, without good evidence of efficacy. We just did it.And it looks like it\u2019s been a disastrous experiment. And so I think we need to undo it.<\/p>\n<p>I think it would be nice now to undo it in a systematic way. So let\u2019s say a state or a school district\u2014half of the schools\u2014we\u2019re going to take this entirely out of elementary school, get all the screens out of elementary school. And then let\u2019s see how that compares to the schools that don\u2019t do it. Just for a year or two.<\/p>\n<p>And then if it works, then we do it nationally. Then everybody does it. I\u2019d prefer that it\u2019s done in a way where we can actually get data on what works.<\/p>\n<p>But we have to do it. And I think we have alignment.<\/p>\n<p>Who do you think would oppose that? Who do you think would oppose a move for phone-free schools and no more one-to-one devices?<\/p>\n<p><strong data-start=\"2917\" data-end=\"3018\">Just the tech companies, the consultants, and people who make money off of keeping it in schools.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Exactly. And they tricked us.<\/p>\n<p><strong data-start=\"3063\" data-end=\"3259\">Maybe some people who feel like, we need to prepare kids for the real world. But again, you\u2019re talking about\u2014we don\u2019t need to do that when they\u2019re five. Maybe in high school.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>No, that\u2019s right. That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Yeah, you want to prepare kids for the real world, you want to prepare them for college\u2014so send me a kid who has never been on a computer, but who can think and focus and has proper executive function and can pay attention, and has good social skills. Send me that kid at age 18.<\/p>\n<p>That kid is going to vastly outperform kids who\u2019ve been on iPads since they were two.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<div class=\"flex h-full flex-col overflow-y-auto [scrollbar-gutter:stable_both-edges] @[84rem]\/thread:pt-(--header-height)\">\n<div class=\"@thread-xl\/thread:pt-header-height mt-1.5 flex flex-col text-sm pb-25\">\n<article class=\"text-token-text-primary w-full\" dir=\"auto\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-38\" data-scroll-anchor=\"true\">\n<div class=\"text-base my-auto mx-auto py-5 [--thread-content-margin:--spacing(4)] @[37rem]:[--thread-content-margin:--spacing(6)] @[72rem]:[--thread-content-margin:--spacing(16)] px-(--thread-content-margin)\">\n<div class=\"[--thread-content-max-width:32rem] @[34rem]:[--thread-content-max-width:40rem] @[64rem]:[--thread-content-max-width:48rem] mx-auto flex max-w-(--thread-content-max-width) flex-1 text-base gap-4 md:gap-5 lg:gap-6 group\/turn-messages focus-visible:outline-hidden\" tabindex=\"-1\">\n<div class=\"group\/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn\">\n<div class=\"relative flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3\">\n<div class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col grow\">\n<div class=\"min-h-8 text-message relative flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 text-start break-words whitespace-normal [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"assistant\" data-message-id=\"9afe3b87-2424-411a-ba15-0ebec22b901e\" data-message-model-slug=\"gpt-4o\">\n<div class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[3px]\">\n<div class=\"markdown prose dark:prose-invert w-full break-words light\">\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"3655\" data-end=\"4105\"><strong data-start=\"3655\" data-end=\"4105\">It\u2019s exciting to think that there\u2019s momentum towards this, particularly since bringing the play back, bringing the recess back. I have seen school policies start to shift a little bit over the last few years. Everyone\u2019s just afraid of being left behind. If everyone else is doing a 90-minute math block and we only do a 70-minute math block so the kids can go outside, our scores are going to be lower. It\u2019s scary, I think, to make those changes.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"166\" data-end=\"500\">That&#8217;s right. Tell me more about that. What are the pressures? When everybody says, \u201cOh, accountability, accountability.\u201d But if you have a metric for accountability, then that\u2019s of course what people are forced to teach to and to accommodate. And you don\u2019t get the other things that you want.<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"502\" data-end=\"671\">So tell me, how are teachers judged? Is it all by a single test? What are the ways in which teachers are pressed to just drill and kill, or whatever you want to call it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"673\" data-end=\"881\"><strong>In many ways, yeah. It\u2019s the test score. It factors into their evaluation. The school also is reduced to those test scores. It\u2019s decided if it\u2019s a \u201cgood school\u201d or not, based on how they perform on tests.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"\" data-start=\"883\" data-end=\"1099\"><strong>And it\u2019s risky to think, \u201cOkay, we\u2019ll take away this extra math tutoring and let them play.\u201d What if that doesn\u2019t translate into better results? We better just sit them down with this worksheet and make them do that.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I recognize this is a huge problem, and teachers are caught in the middle. And, you know, you are the ones with the best intuitions. You\u2019re the ones who see what\u2019s happening\u2014and these policies are pushed on you from above.<\/p>\n<p>But here\u2019s the hopeful thing. Things are changing faster than I\u2019ve ever seen in my life.<\/p>\n<p>And I think part of the reason is because we were beginning to figure this out in 2019. So Jean Twenge wrote an influential article in 2017 titled <em>Have Smartphones Destroyed a Generation?<\/em> And that\u2019s when I started really looking into this\u2014in part because of Jean\u2019s work.<\/p>\n<p>And by 2019, I was beginning to publish on this. I was beginning to collect all the studies. And Jean and I were both out there saying, you know, we think the phones are really hurting kids.<\/p>\n<p>And then\u2014what we were saying back then was, what kids really need is less time on screens, more time outside playing. That was in 2019.<\/p>\n<p>Then COVID comes in\u2014January, March of 2020. Exactly five years ago.<\/p>\n<p>And what do kids get? Much more time on screens. No time outside playing. Because\u2014you might catch COVID outside.<\/p>\n<p>In New York City, they closed the playgrounds. They closed the baseball fields. The tennis courts. I can\u2019t believe what the city did to crush play\u2014<em>outdoor<\/em> play\u2014which would have been the best thing for kids.<\/p>\n<p>Instead, my kids rotted away. Whether it was supposed to be online school\u2014my kid, they watched all these Netflix series, like, literally 10 times. They watched <em>The Office<\/em>, the entire series, 10 times. And I didn\u2019t find out about this for years.<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cHow did you watch it 10 times?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cWell, you know, during COVID class\u2026 we were all watching Netflix.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Anyway, it was a complete disaster. We\u2019ve got to reverse it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Well, it is hopeful to think about the momentum sort of shifting in this way. And as divided as the country is right now, and as much controversy as there is in schools about how we should be teaching kids, this does seem to be a sort of bipartisan take\u2014that we need to get kids off of screens and that we need to introduce more time for free play.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Exactly. That\u2019s right. And that\u2019s what\u2019s so exciting about this.<\/p>\n<p>So let\u2019s be hopeful. We\u2019ve talked about this huge problem, but\u2014you know, what I was trying to convey a moment ago was: however big the problem is, it\u2019s incredible what happens when you get parents all over the world\u2014especially mothers. This is really driven by mothers.<\/p>\n<p>What I\u2019ve seen talking to people all over is that, while fathers care about this a lot, men are often a little bit more technophilic. They kind of, often, like the technology more. And mothers are more emotionally sensitive. The mothers felt their kids slipping away more than fathers did.<\/p>\n<p>Women are just\u2014they\u2019re more open to, and better able to read, emotions in others. So what I\u2019m finding is that there\u2019s basically a <em>mothers\u2019 rebellion<\/em> all over the world.<\/p>\n<p>And you even see this in politics. It\u2019s especially female governors\u2014or it\u2019s the wife of a male governor\u2014who will initiate this.<\/p>\n<p>So, if you anger mothers all over the world\u2014okay, if you\u2019re tech companies, if you\u2019re EdTech\u2014and the things you\u2019re doing are angering mothers all over the world\u2026 and many of those mothers are teachers, and many of them are legislators, and many of them are governors, and many of them are heads of state?<\/p>\n<p>Guess what? Things are going to change.<\/p>\n<p>And they <em>are<\/em> changing quickly. So I\u2019m really, really optimistic that however bad things are\u2014everyone sees it now.<\/p>\n<p>And for three years, we couldn\u2019t see it because of COVID. But everyone sees it now. And so I think things are going to change.<\/p>\n<p><strong>This might be the first interview I\u2019ve ever done in which I didn\u2019t ask any of the questions that I had planned, and the interview was way better. So I\u2019m going to have to bring you back on another time to talk about the resilience piece, because that\u2019s really fascinating, too.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Well, you know what\u2014we still have a few minutes. Let me ask you. I need to know a few things.<\/p>\n<p>So one thing that I need to know is\u2014especially about younger kids. So, in <em>The Anxious Generation<\/em>, I focused my research on teenagers, because that\u2019s where the evidence was best. Social media harming preteen girls\u2014that\u2019s the clearest. So I really focused on adolescence and puberty. I have a little bit to say about elementary school. I don\u2019t know much about zero to five.<\/p>\n<p>So tell me what you\u2019re seeing or what you hear. When I speak to pre-K and kindergarten teachers, I hear a lot of them are saying kids are coming in with huge developmental delays. Language delays. Some\u2014fewer kids are potty-trained. Like, all kinds of problems.<\/p>\n<p>Now, was this COVID? Was it spending COVID on iPads? What was it? I don\u2019t know. But tell me\u2014what are you hearing or seeing about younger kids? Zero to five?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Yes, same thing. That\u2014it\u2019s not even that they\u2019re coming into first grade not having learned what they were supposed to in kindergarten. It\u2019s that their first school experience is that they have not been socialized.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>They are not sure how to share things. They don\u2019t know how to take turns, how to wait, you know, how to ask for things that they need in an appropriate way.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Yeah, just a lot of those skills. And, you know, I think it almost has to tie into the fact that so many of them are given screens at a young age.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>I was noticing the other day when I was in a store that there was a two-year-old in a shopping cart who waved to me and said hi. And I realized\u2014that was the first time that has happened in forever.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Because they all have an iPad or an iPhone.<\/p>\n<p><strong>They\u2019re completely buried in watching YouTube videos when they\u2019re in the cart. And this kid had a toy in their hand and was looking around, engaging with people, and making eye contact. And sometimes I think it\u2019s just as simple as that.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s right.\u00a0 I think we\u2019re going to\u2014we\u2019re going to have to switch. We\u2019re going to have to come to see\u2014I hate to put it this way\u2014but if you give your kid an iPhone or an iPad, we\u2019re going to have to see it kind of like you\u2019re giving them a cigarette. That\u2019s overstating things. But the way we turned on that, the way we turned on tobacco usage by kids\u2014and even smoking around kids\u2014we had a culture change. That took a couple of decades, but we did it.<\/p>\n<p>I think we\u2019re going to have to have a culture change around this.<\/p>\n<p>Again, I don\u2019t want to vilify parents who\u2014like, we did. My wife and I\u2014our son was born in 2006, before the iPhone. And we used what we called \u201cvitamin T,\u201d which was the Teletubbies.<\/p>\n<p>We found that when he was, you know, 8, 9, 10 months old\u2014if he was crying, we just turned on the Teletubbies, put him in his bouncy seat, and everybody was happy.<\/p>\n<p>So we all did it, because it seems to work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Yeah.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>And we\u2019re just going to have to learn. Like, we have to find\u2014and the thing is, once you start doing it, then you have to keep doing it. Because they expect it.<\/p>\n<p>But if you don\u2019t do it\u2014if you give them a toy, a physical toy\u2014then they learn to play with the toy for a longer period of time. And then maybe they\u2019re a little bored with the toy, and they look around. \u201cOh, hello! Hello!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think it\u2019s going to be hard. I make it sound like it\u2019s easy because the solutions are kind of simple. But it\u2019s going to take a lot of work to implement them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>I want to close out the show with a Takeaway Truth. What\u2019s something that you wish every educator understood about creating a healthier, freer childhood for our young people?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I guess I would put it like this: play is a biological necessity. We evolved to play. Our kids <em>crave<\/em> play. It develops their social abilities. It develops their cognitive abilities. It prepares them to learn. So play is <em>so<\/em> essential.<\/p>\n<h3>Where to get more resources<\/h3>\n<p>I didn\u2019t mention, I need to mention this\u2014educators: please go to <a href=\"https:\/\/letgrow.org\/\">LetGrow.org<\/a>. It\u2019s an organization I co-founded with Lenore Skenazy, who wrote the book <em>Free-Range Kids<\/em>. Go to LetGrow.org.<\/p>\n<p>The biggest thing you can do to improve the <em>social<\/em> functioning, and I would say <em>cognitive<\/em> functioning of your kids, is the Let Grow Experience.<\/p>\n<p>And it costs exactly $0. The whole thing costs $0.<\/p>\n<p>All it is\u2014you go to LetGrow.org, download the toolkit. It explains exactly how to introduce it. You just send your kids home with a piece of paper.<\/p>\n<p>Let\u2019s suppose you do it in third grade\u2014age 8, I think, is a really, really good age. You can do it at any age, but age 8 is great. Also maybe at the beginning of middle school\u2014another great time.<\/p>\n<p>You send all your third graders home. They bring a piece of paper. It says:<\/p>\n<p><em>Please talk with your parents and try to figure out something that you think you can do on your own\u2014with your parents\u2019 permission, but without your parents\u2014something you\u2019ve never done before.<\/em><\/p>\n<p>We give them some suggestions. Maybe you can walk the dog\u2014if you\u2019ve never done that alone. Maybe you can walk to a store. Ride your bicycle to a friend\u2019s house. Make breakfast. Whatever.<\/p>\n<p>Once a month, over the whole year\u2014you do it 8 or 9 times\u2014once a month, the kids do a project. Then they come in and write what they did and post it on the wall as a little leaf.<\/p>\n<p>And before you know it\u2014you have a tree forming. It\u2019s fantastic.<\/p>\n<p>The best ones are where you send the kid out into the world. Go visit someone. Bring something. Arrange with a neighbor two blocks away\u2014\u201cI\u2019m going to send them over with a book.\u201d You don\u2019t need the book, but just let them do it.<\/p>\n<p>And then, two things\u2014three things\u2014happen.<\/p>\n<p>First: the kid comes back <em>jumping up and down.<\/em> They are so excited. They\u2019ve done something. They\u2019re useful.<\/p>\n<p>It changes the kids quickly. Makes them more confident and happier.<\/p>\n<p>We have research showing it actually reduces anxiety <em>faster than Prozac.<\/em> Do it once a week\u2014four experiences in a month. That\u2019s how long Prozac takes to work anyway.<\/p>\n<p>Second, it changes the <em>parents.<\/em> Because none of us know the \u201cright\u201d age to send our kids out. But if the <em>school<\/em> says, \u201cThis is homework,\u201d then\u2014okay. I guess 8 is the right age.<\/p>\n<p>We send them out, we\u2019re nervous. My wife and I were anxious the first time our son walked to school alone\u2014he was 9. A year or two ahead of the others.<\/p>\n<p>We tracked him\u2014gave him my old iPhone. We didn\u2019t know any better. We were <em>so<\/em> anxious. But he made it. The second day, we tracked him again. A little less nervous. Third day\u2014we didn\u2019t even track him anymore because he was <em>so<\/em> competent.<\/p>\n<p>Third, when a whole town does this, something amazing happens. Suddenly, you have 8-year-olds walking to CVS. Walking into the supermarket. Buying things and walking home.<\/p>\n<p>No one has seen that since 1992. We knocked that out. No more kids out in the world. But they can do it. And they have to do it.<\/p>\n<p>You change the town. You change the norms.<\/p>\n<p>And if anyone\u2019s nervous that someone will call the police? Go to LetGrow.org\u2014we have a \u201ckid license.\u201d I forget what it\u2019s called, but you\u2019ll find it. It\u2019s a little card I invented:<\/p>\n<p><em>\u201cI\u2019m not lost. My parents know what I\u2019m doing. If you\u2019re concerned, please:<\/em><\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><em>Read The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn<\/em><\/li>\n<li><em>Think back to your own childhood<\/em><\/li>\n<li><em>Call my parents\u2014here are their numbers.\u201d<\/em><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>So if you give your kid that, even if a neighbor calls the police, they\u2019re much less likely to call Child Protective Services. It\u2019s clear: this isn\u2019t neglect. It\u2019s a project.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"markdown prose dark:prose-invert w-full break-words light\">\n<p><strong>Thank you so much, Jon. This has been so insightful, and I think just really validating for a lot of teachers.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Thanks, Angela. For more information, I hope everyone will go to <a href=\"https:\/\/anxiousgeneration.com\/\">AnxiousGeneration.com<\/a>. That\u2019s the central hub: AnxiousGeneration.com.<\/p>\n<p>Good luck to you. You\u2019re on the front lines. You\u2019re facing pressures from all sides\u2014but you all are going to help us reverse this.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019re going to be the main players in rolling this back. We\u2019re going to go for phone-free schools and a play-based childhood.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Thank you for all of your work in this area.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"We replaced writing with AI prompting. Here&#039;s what we lost.\" width=\"500\" height=\"281\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/vram8d1f5fQ?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><strong>Check out this YouTube video essay I made on what we lost when we stopped writing and started AI prompting.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/article>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In this powerful and eye-opening conversation, I talk with Jonathan Haidt\u2014author of The Anxious Generation\u2014about how smartphones, social media, and one-to-one devices have rewired both childhood and school. We explore the sharp rise in anxiety, attention fragmentation, and developmental delays\u2014and how much of it traces back to the early 2010s, when tech flooded both kids\u2019 &hellip; <a href=\"https:\/\/truthforteachers.com\/truth-for-teachers-podcast\/distraction-free-schools-and-the-future-of-childhood-jonathan-haidt\/\">Continued<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":152982,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","categories":[11,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-152835","podcasts","type-podcasts","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-education-trends","category-truth-for-teachers-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.2 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Truth For Teachers | Distraction-free schools and the future of childhood with Jonathan Haidt<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/truthforteachers.com\/truth-for-teachers-podcast\/distraction-free-schools-and-the-future-of-childhood-jonathan-haidt\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Truth For Teachers | Distraction-free schools and the future of childhood with Jonathan Haidt\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"In this powerful and eye-opening conversation, I talk with Jonathan Haidt\u2014author of The Anxious Generation\u2014about how smartphones, social media, and one-to-one devices have rewired both childhood and school. 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